Building Successful Business Partnerships
Being a sole business owner can be tough, but finding and building a partnership can be just as challenging. Rob explores his 11-year partnership with Ben at Sparkbox and discusses the impact it has had on the company. Through trust, alignment, complimentary skills, and intentionality, you can create a partnership that lasts.
Transcript
Announcer:
Welcome to the Overly Human podcast where we discuss all things human in the workplace. Because it's not just business—it's personal too.
Rob:
So the other day I was involved in a conversation with several other web digital studio owners and the conversation of ownership came up and specifically around this idea of how hard it was to be a single owner in a business. And it really made me stop and think about my situation. And for those that don't know, I have a business partner, Ben Callahan—who is one of my best friends—and I really can't imagine doing Sparkbox without him.
We're very much involved with each other's lives. Our kids are really good friends. And over the last 11 years, we've been through a lot together and it kind of made me think of all the different pieces and how difficult it would be to sit on top of one of these organizations with some of the stress involved alone.
Traci:
Yeah. I think it is a topic that comes up often. Definitely comes up in my business. Obviously, I have a partner as well, who also is my best friend and my husband. And man, if you have a good partnership, there's nothing that beats it. Now there's also bad partnerships, but a good partnership can really make your days better, your years better, your business better. And there's so much baked into what makes a good partnership.
And I'm so excited to have this conversation with you today because I've always admired your partnership with Ben. And I know many people that know you admire your partnership with them, and I'd love to kind of dissect that. What is it that has made your partnerships so good and how has that good partnership made Sparkbox so successful?
Rob:
Yeah. We get that question all the time and it's been several years that people will ask, "Well, how did you find each other? I just don't understand how that the two of you do this together and seem like there's unity and that you're happy with each other all the time." Part of me when that question first started coming up was a little surprised because, one, my context is working with Ben, but at the same time I've had other business partners along the way that we've have exited the business a couple of different ways.
And I recognize that there's a lot of friction that can happen with partnerships too, because it's like any other relationship. There is things that try relationships and the number one thing that causes problems in most marriages is money. And I would venture to say that the thing that causes most of the challenges in business relationships is money as well. That's a tough subject. And that's been the one thing that I think that Ben and I've always been able to have those conversations and come out as friends on the other side. Because it's based on trust to start with. I think that's one of the most important things.
Traci:
Oh yeah. Yeah. And we always follow the Patrick Lencioni's Five Behaviors of a Cohesive Team. And I love that model because the foundation of every relationship is trust. And whether that's a partnership, whether that's a leadership team, whether that's a marriage, whether that's best friends, if you don't have some sort of connection and deep trust, it's really hard to do anything else. It's hard to have those hard conversations you're talking about with money. It's impossible to have healthy conflict. It's hard to hold each other accountable. Trust is just so key.
Did you have a trusting kind of relationship with Ben before you went into a partnership or did it evolve after you became partners? And is it still this evolution? I mean, talk to me about what you've experienced in building trust with your partner.
Rob:
Yeah. I don't know that we had at the very, very beginning like we do now. I think that would have been hard. It definitely came from being in the trenches together is where that kind of trust developed is like a lot of businesses, we were completely bootstrapped. We had no capital. We're able to pay ourselves when we made money and that was the understanding going in. So that put us very much on the same team often because we both wanted to be successful.
And because it felt like in a lot of situations, it was the two of us versus the world that trust was there. It had to be there because there had to be somebody you could rely on. There had to be somebody who had the same context you did to have really tough conversations with about things that other people just wouldn't understand right off. And that was one of the things that I think was something that was foundational for our relationship is as we started encountering these challenges in our growing business and trying to grow a business and really trying to survive at the beginning was there is realities that we were facing that had to be talked about with somebody that you were afraid to say out loud in a loud context.
Traci:
Yeah, definitely. Those hard conversations when you have that trust level, then your heart's not beating so fast to go into it or you're not avoiding. But if you have this kind of trust where you're in the trenches together, you trust each other, you can confront these difficult conversations and hold each other accountable when you need to.
One of the things, other things that I've really admired about you and Ben is you seem to have these really compatible skills and you figured out what lane each of you needs to operate in. There are some skills I imagine that you both share, but it's interesting to me how you have found your lanes and you're able to on a daily basis you kind of know what your role is. Is that a fair assessment?
Rob:
Yeah, I think that's a pretty fair assessment. I mean, I think it starts with we have alignment on vision. And we believe the same things, but what's interesting is we believe the same things for different reasons. And that has been something that we've had to unpack a couple of times over the years about the things we believe that we agree on, but why we get there is very different. And so that affects sometimes our approaches.
But since we trust each other, we very much want to be in our own lanes and compliment each other. And what we find is that we can talk about hard things or really anything, and be able to explore the entire problem set. And we have the basic agreement between us that no matter what happens in our office, when we walk out there's unity. And there has been times when I know that we've not come to 100% alignment or 100% agreement, but the common story there is, there is always a deference to whose lane it is in some ways.
And one of the things that I find myself saying—and so does Ben—is we'll be talking about something and one of my superpowers is I'm able to argue any side of anything. I like having the discussion and I can pick up. And there are times where I'll look at Ben and we'll be talking about things and it'll be kind of clunky and not making a lot of progress. And I'll look at him and say like, "You know what? You care more passionately about this than I do. Let's try it your way and if it doesn't work, we can still go to my way. And I'm cool with that."
And it's that ability to do that on either side and he'll do the same thing it's like, "Hey, we don't agree on this, but this is your lane. You care way more about this. You're passionate about this and I'm just not sure. So let's try your way." And we've had enough back and forth over the last decade where we've had some wins and some losses, but our goals are still to move the business forward.
Traci:
Yeah. So it sounds like you find alignment and total and complete agreement on vision and you commit to that and how you execute it might be where some of the debate and discussion comes in and where there's compromise. It sounds like you guys are really good at compromising and knowing when somebody feels very passionate about that, kind of letting them run with it.
So it sounds like that works really, really, really well for you on this kind of high level of working on the business. Do you both have different kind of for lack of a better word, job descriptions? When you're in the day-to-day of the business, what does that look like? Were you able to kind of come to an agreement on who does what? Was that a hard thing?
Rob:
I don't think it was hard. I think it just developed over years. It was something that we kind of fell into like any growing business when we were really small, both of us worked in the business as much as on the business. And when it was time and there was the resources to have somebody take that first step to working on the business instead of in the business, that was Ben. He is the president of Sparkbox. He is the visionary. He is all of those fun things. And that was the role that he assumed and that's where he belongs.
We often describe our roles as he is the why person I am the how person. I am the classic implementer, all those other fun things. So when he first stepped up, when we stepped into that role and spent first part of his days and then most of his days working on the business instead of in, I took the job of I felt like my job was the body guard. I took bullets. I made sure that he had the headspace he needed to do his job well. And what that ended up being is taking a lot of the day-to-day stuff off of his plate. And that is stuck and that fit me really, really well.
Some of the things when I started working on the business instead of in, it was around a lot of the financials, a lot of the other things, we discovered that I was the spreadsheet partner, for lack of a better way to put it. Had a better sense of the numbers and like that part of it and liked the operational side of things. So I don't know that we would have designed it that way, but I recognize very much that I am a number two and I need a number one and that's Ben in my case, and I couldn't do this without him.
And I think it's really interesting. One of the things that I've had to stop and realize about myself is it's hard because one of the biggest dangers of being a number two is thinking that you don't need a number one, because you can get things done. I fundamentally believe that most number ones know they need a how person, because I've seen it in action. I've talked to enough other people that they need somebody to help make their visions a reality. That's not something that they're gifted with. But because a number two, an implementer can get things done. One of the dangers is thinking that he can also set the vision.
Traci:
Yeah. And I think I have seen that so many times and definitely in sole proprietors as well, that really want a partner that oftentimes they are the how people. Because they started out as practitioners and they became almost accidental entrepreneurs or accidental CEOs and they really want a partner. But the first step is figuring that out. Am I the why person? Am I the how person. If I'm the how person, am I okay with going out and finding a visionary that's going to get me unstuck? Because I can execute a lot, but can I actually cast vision? Can I see down the road?
And I think that's hard for some people who are looking for a partner, but what you're describing is key. And it is one of the biggest reasons why you guys are so successful is you have figured out where you're gifted, how you're gifted, and how that plays out as you work on the business and in the business. And you've been able to honor that with each other, respect that in each other, and allow it to happen. Give each other the space for that to happen. And then you are able to shine individually and collectively, and that is key to a great partnership.
Rob:
I completely agree. It's that whole ability to put the business, make sure it's the most important thing we're working on, right? And at the same time, there is work that we put in every single week to make sure that our relationship between the two of us is rock solid.
And I think that's the other part that I can't ignore is how much—not effort, effort makes it sound like something I don't want to do—but how much intentionality is built into our relationship and making sure that we continue to be invested in each other, but invested in the business and have alignment.
Traci:
Yeah. That's how you build trust is that intentionality and that investment in each other. I mean, you know this from being married, but it's the same with a business partnership. What are some of the things that you guys do these intentional sort of investment times with each other?
Rob:
Yeah. I mean, pre-pandemic, a little hint on when we're recording this. We've done this for years is we do breakfast on Monday every week. We set aside time. We sit down, we go through our hit list—which is just topics that we're discussing and spiraling on and all of that. And that's what we do most of the time, but there is totally weeks where we just sit there and talk about our weekends or talk about what's going on in our kids' lives or whatever else. It's time set aside so that tough conversations can happen. But if there's not that we can just spend time together and share with each other, and just hang out.
We share a lot of the same hobbies. We're in the middle of golf season and it's not uncommon for us to play golf once a week together. And can we talk about business stuff? Yes. Do we always? Of course not, not anymore. But there is important things that happen, that trust and that relationship is as much an asset to Sparkbox in the business as it is for us just sitting down in a conference room and hammering through issues.
Traci:
It's so important. You've hit on some really key things that make a partnership really successful. The trust, the agreed vision, being able to have hard conversations and hold each other accountable, picking lanes and having compatible skills.
What are some of the things that you've seen, whether it's been with past partnerships, or even with Ben that can eat away at a partnership if you let it happen or can be destructive to a partnership?
Rob:
I think that a lot of it is just calling things what they are and recognizing the realities that exist. There are tough things that happen in a business. When you get into a partnership that in the business has any success there starts being a lot of value in a lot of the owners I know, an immense amount of their personal net worth is tied up in their business. So we're all of a sudden talking about there's ego involved, there's money involved, there's all these different pieces.
And the other thing that in those conversations with between partners I think you have to realize is there is if they have a significant other, if they have a family, those voices can be present in that room. And I think that you have to recognize that and sometimes call it out is to say the words of like, "Hey, my wife is feeling this way." Knowing that she's having an impact on your business partner or on you and how you view things in the business.
So recognizing those things are taking place and knows that's reality and not trying to just ignore them and say like, "Well, that shouldn't be having an impact on the business." Because you have humans that you're partners with. They live with other humans. And to think that they have this magical ability to turn on and off those emotions and segregate and have different buckets of energy is nuts.
Traci:
Yeah. I think man, you've hit on like really big ones, ego. I think that almost ties back to what you were talking about with you have to be able to put the business above you as an individual and above the partnership and meaning that you need to be committed to the greater mission and vision. If you're in it for just yourself or you're in it for just the money or you're in it, that's going to rub up against the partnership and that's going to be really hard to compromise and to really make sure you're making the right decision for the business.
But I love this there's other voices in the room and there's other things that you have to be tuned into as a partnership. Because we're talking about partnerships that are also ownerships when we're having this conversation. And when you own a business, there's a lot of weight to that. There's a lot of responsibility to that. It's different than just going in and punching your card and punching out at the end of the day. So there's a lot of weight to that ownership. Is it tricky for you guys as owners when you are looking long-term ahead as a partner?
Rob:
I don't think so. I mean, because we have that alignment it's pretty consistent and we have that. We know where we want to go and we are constantly iterating and working on the best way to get there.
One of the things that I've said for years that I continue to repeat to myself and to Ben is that my hope is at the whenever, the however the end of Sparkbox comes, that we both arrive and are done at roughly the same time. Because if we have unity on that, everything else will work out.
I think one of the biggest risks is if one of us were to be done or not interested in the same way at different times while the other one wasn't for whatever reasons that could be really, really damaging both to our relationship because of our alignment being not there and then to the business.
So I think that when we talk about long-term what I hope is that we continue to say out loud that our visions and our alignment is still there, because then we can talk about tactics. And as long as we're talking about tactics it's a conversation that we can iterate on and make mistakes, but the vision and the alignment of where we want to be and who we want to be needs to be consistent.
Traci:
And do you have that check in conversation with each other often to make sure you're still on the same page and long-term you're still wanting the same things?
Rob:
Yeah, we do. We're pretty intentional about it. We spend a bunch of time together. Ben and I, we kind of are doing life together as well. Up until this year, we've been really intentional to make sure we're traveling together a couple of times a year on bigger trips or if we're on a business trip together, we'll add three or four days to do some reflection time and some big picture planning to have those kinds of conversations, which has been invaluable.
But yes, you have to not be afraid to say those things out loud and making sure that everybody has permission to talk about when that stuff's changed. Assumptions are killer.
Traci:
I think that's huge. Yeah, that's true. It will be interesting…it will be great if you guys do want to end at the same time, but there is a chance that maybe you don't want to and he doesn't want to. Or there could be partners listening to this podcast right now thinking, "Well, I want to get out now, but he wants to continue on." What's your advice for that? Because it doesn't always end perfectly for partnerships. Sometimes there can be bad breakups sometimes it's exactly what you're just talking about, where somebody just sort burns out.
Rob:
When those kinds of things happen, you have to do an inventory on what role you're playing and what pieces you're missing. You would hope that you would be able to find somebody else or maybe that you would be able to find somebody internally that can help play that. Maybe not as even an ownership role, but as am executive role, depending on the size of your business. Right?
I think it's really, really dangerous when you don't want to stay in your lane. Right? Be really tempting in a case where you had a long-term partnership that was successful to want to assume both roles or try the other one on.
Traci:
That's so wise. And I think one of the things that points to and I know we've talked about this in previous podcasts is leadership teams. And if you're not big enough for a leadership team, I love how you said find some leaders around you. And I think that is a great thing for owners to think about. And to remember is that partnerships aren't things you should rush into ever. It's like marriage. Don't rush into it. And if you have people around you that you can "share ownership" without sharing ownership, do that.
And until you find the right partner, if you're looking for a partnership or if you're a sole proprietor and you really don't right now feel ready to go into a partnership. Again, look to your leadership team. Look to people around that are leaders that you can rise up because partnerships they can be scary things. They're important things. They're amazing relationships that can propel your business and bring a lot of joy to your life. But you need to find the right partner.
Rob:
So quick disclaimer, I'm not a tax attorney. I'm not an accountant. The value transfer bringing on partners and the tax implications are huge. Be wary of those. When we talk about the value of these businesses and the cash and all that stuff, those are all considerations.
Also, I so strongly urge anyone who's listening who's considering this to have a rock solid partnership agreement, operating agreement. It's so important. And you need to be able to have one of those in place and have something that is mutual, that protects both of you in a time when things are really good between you and your partner. Because those agreements, in my opinion, once they're negotiated, live in a drawer and don't get a voice until things go poorly. And at that point, you're never going to get the agreement you need.
As soon as a client says or any of my business partners who've ever said, "I went and looked at the agreement" I'm like, "Uh oh, I've lost the opportunity to have reasonable conversations and now we're in a legal conversation on what we agreed to. We're in trouble."
You have to have a strong agreement that's fair, but you need to do it at the right time when things are good. But once you have it, leave it in the drawer. Don't bring it up unless it's the end.
Traci:
Yeah. It's like when you're in a marriage and not threatening to get a divorce. You just don't want to be saying those things. That's not what it's about. And I think that's great advice because these are legal relationships and there are a lot of ramifications and things to think about around them.
And you and I have been to many Bureau events together and we've sat in many rooms with people we're great friends with and have had to listen to very, very tough stories about partnerships breaking up. And it's no fun. It's really, really hard. So yes, you need to protect yourself legally and you need to make sure that you're entering in with the right person or right people if it's going to be a multi-partnership.
Rob:
Yeah. So let's just recap real quick. It all starts with trust. All starts with trust. The second thing is you have to have alignment. Third is you need to have complimentary skill sets and be able to pick your lanes and stick to them. And then the fourth thing we talked about was making sure that you understand and are intentional with all the voices in the room.
Traci:
Yeah. All important things. And man, if you can find that like you have found it with Ben, boy you can really use that partnership to propel that business to success. It's a great thing.
Rob:
I hope so.
Traci:
It appears so. Yeah. We'll have to do another episode and talk about married partnerships.
Rob:
Yeah, that's one you can talk about. I've never been married to my partner, my business partner so.
Traci:
And we know a ton especially even in the tech space of married partners, or life partners that are doing business together. And it's an interesting topic. So we'll circle back to that in the future.
Rob:
Yeah. Thanks Traci.
Traci:
Thank you.
Announcer:
This podcast would not be possible without the amazing communications team at Sparkbox. If you like what you've heard, please subscribe and tell your friends to listen as well. The Overly Human podcast is brought to you by Navigate the Journey and Sparkbox. For more information on this podcast, or to get in touch with Traci or Rob, go to overlyhuman.com. Thanks for listening.
