Having Hard Conversations
No one finds having tough conversations fun. Many common conversations can be hard: giving bad news, hard feedback, or the final news of terminating an employee. Tune in as Rob and Traci discuss how to broach these topics and how to approach tough conversations with empathy.
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Announcer:
Welcome to the Overly Human Podcast where we discuss all things human in the workplace. Because it's not just business, it's personal too.
Rob:
One of the things that I was pretty unprepared for in business when I was first getting started almost 15 years ago running my company was how important it would be to have tough conversations and to give bad news. That's something that I think that is so important for so many of us to do well.
And there's so many great models for this, but this is an important topic right now because of a couple things. One, we're at the beginning of the year. This is a great time to look at our vision and our goals and to make sure we have alignment on our team. It's also a lot of the time of the year when annual reviews or biannual reviews are going on and that all-important critical feedback has to be there so that we can provide the good growth mechanism for our peers, and people that work with us and for us and all of that.
The other part, unfortunately, is the current business climate that we live in. There is, if you're watching the news, tons of reports of giant companies doing layoffs. And having been through some of that, there is no harder conversation than you may have for the person receiving it than the final conversation.
And I think that when we talk about these things, I really, really like the radical candor model. The idea that you need to both care personally and challenge directly, to make sure that what you're communicating can be heard, not at your lips, but at the listener's ear.
Good morning, Traci. How are you?
Traci:
Good. Good morning to you too. This is a great topic. It's timely. I know that it's something that all people struggle with, is having difficult conversations because it feels uncomfortable, you're not sure of how the other person's going to react, nobody likes delivering bad news everybody likes delivering good news. Some people are good at it because they've had to do it often or because they're just ... have really doubled down on learning how to communicate or using a model like you just pointed out, radical candor.
But for many, many leaders, this is a struggle. It trips them up, and it makes them panicky and anxious. I think it's an important thing to talk about. And we can kind of ease the pain a little bit if we learn to just do a few things well, and prepare well for these types of conversations.
Rob:
Yeah. And I think that there's a really important thing that I think we want to bring up immediately is these conversations are rarely any fun. They're not fun. They're not easy. And no matter how good you get at the skill of delivering hard news, bad news, constructive feedback, radical candor, whatever we want to call it, you still won't enjoy it.
Traci:
Right. And that's something we hope people feel because often time, not oftentimes, every once in a blue moon, you're going to hear somebody who says, "Oh, doesn't bother me. I'm fine doing it. It's not a big deal." That always gives me a little bit of pause. It's okay to say, "I've figured it out," but it speaks to our empathy level when we are able to say, "It's uncomfortable and it's not fun," because that means we are putting ourselves in the recipient's shoes.
As leaders, that's the first step. Or even coworkers, that we have to hold each other accountable. We always need to deliver feedback and match where that person is, and you can't match where that person is if you don't have a strong empathy meter.
Rob:
Yeah. That's super important. So let's divide this conversation up into two parts, I think. One, let's talk about how to give bad news, hard news, hard feedback, and all of that. And then secondly, let's talk a little bit about what it's like to give, I'll refer to it as final news, because I think those are two very different situations. Even the patterns and the way we structure that feedback has to be different to care for that human well.
So let's start with the, "Hey, we're going to give some hard news, bad news, tough feedback to somebody." How do you coach people? What are your steps here, Traci?
Traci:
Well, I think when I'm talking to and coaching people on the individual experience, we'll start there, just between the two people: the one who's giving the news and the one who's receiving the news. I think that we always want to say, "Don't deliver the shit sandwich. Don't try to make yourself feel better, or try to make it less scary by showering positive feedback all over the more negative or constructive criticism that you have to give." Research shows that it's not that people feel better when you do that, it's that they don't hear the negative feedback. They don't hear the constructive criticism. All they hear is the positive feedback and they hold onto that.
You should be giving positive feedback all the time, organically in the moment, not just waiting for reviews. So positive feedback should feel like a norm, so much so that you don't have to go into this hard conversation showering the person with positive feedback.
And if you're talking to somebody who rarely gets positive feedback, either from their teammates or from you, that's a problem. Sometimes there are team players that either aren't in the right seat or shouldn't be on the bus at all. Assuming we're talking about people we want to keep on the bus, we really want to come prepared. We really want to make sure we've done our homework. That we have specific instances and examples because that's where employees get really frustrated, is that, they say, "Okay, I hear you. Can you give me an example?" And you just sit there and stare. Or you say, "Well, I just heard it from a few people." Or, "I don't know, it's word on the street." You just can't do that. You have to do your research, do your homework.
Make sure that the feedback is not a one-off or just a personality conflict with one other teammate, that this is actually an issue. And if you've done your homework, you're going to have examples if it really is an issue. So you want to make sure the feedback is clear, there's examples, and then you're painting a picture of where the person needs to go.
So you're not just leaving them with the feedback, but you're showing them the way, the way to success. So you say, "This is what success looks like. This is what you clearly need to work on. This is how we can come alongside you and help you work on these things." You're not just delivering, but you're mentoring and you're coaching the person so that they're clear on the path to get there. So they leave hopeful. They leave like they have a set of steps, action steps, ahead of them.
Rob:
I mean, it goes back to this whole idea of, "No one will care how much you know until they know how much you care," right? You have to show up for them. Those kind of things, those relationships, and those moments are often defined not just by those giving bad news, meetings or instances or feedback times, it's the things done up before then that set the stage for those things to go well.
Traci:
Yes.
Rob:
One of the key things that I find is making sure I understand, depending on the level of bad news and what has to be communicated, is how that human wants to be communicated with and what my expectations are for that time to talk to them. There are people that I've worked with over the years that I know if I start a conversation and just drop a bunch of new things onto them, then they're not going to give me anything in that meeting. That's it. They're going to shut down because they have to process. And some of those individuals, like I said, depending on what the news is, you can see that. You can say, "Hey, we got to talk about some hard things. Here's the hard things we got to talk about. Here's the things that ... Here's why we need to have this conversation. I'd like you to show up at this time and be prepared to talk about this."
That's something I think goes a long way is meeting people where they are, and making sure that you're not expecting them to act out of character too.
Traci:
Yeah. I think just to add to that because those are excellent points, is also, a while back, I read this quote that when you're giving feedback—and I'm not sure who said it, so apologies there—but something to the effect that make sure your tone and demeanor match the person you're talking to, not your mood. The reason why it's stuck with me is because some people will try to overcompensate by being super perky or will try to be dower because they're upset with the person, but they're not meeting the person where they are.
Again, this goes to what you're saying, it doesn't matter what you're delivering if you're not heard. And so we have to make sure that the person sitting across from us is hearing us, that they're not so distracted by our tone or the fact that we're not meeting them where they are, that we're not showing that we care and that we're empathetic and authentic. So that's where...
It's almost like when we talk about executive presence, when you're delivering on stage or in front of the team, this is more like, "What is your presence in the one-on-one feedback moment?" I think not a lot of people think about that. Like, "How am I coming across? What is my tone? What does my body language look like? Am I making eye contact? Am I really matching them where they are?" If they start to get upset to say, "I get it. I get that this doesn't feel good. I've been there before. I remember last time I had to get hard feedback." And walking through the experience with them.
Rob:
Yeah.
Traci:
And I think it takes us as leaders or just being in the workplace in general to take a pause and do some self-awareness work when it comes to having to deliver news.
Rob:
Yeah, it absolutely does. I think that there's a lot of danger in not doing that. You mentioned the poop sandwich kind of way to give news. But you have to be so careful when you use strategies that aren't clearly communicating and you're trying to wrap things up, because you're borderline on manipulation. There are so many people that if they start feeling manipulated, will ignore all of the news you have to give and everything you have to say. They'll make that about what you are doing to them in that moment. You have to let the news and the conversation you're having be the star, right?
Traci:
Yeah.
Rob:
You are helping them get to a place where they can hear that feedback in a way where they can interpret and do something with it. Because like we previously said, this is not the final conversation. This is a conversation where you're helping somebody grow and get there and hear something. What that means is, like you said, you got to go with that journey on them. You're trying not to manipulate them. And you got to give them a path, right?
Traci:
Yeah.
Rob:
Sometimes you also got to be prepared to hear what they have to say. Part of these hard conversations, at least in my experience has been, there's some listening involved. A lot of listening.
Traci:
Oh, a lot. If you don't give the person a chance to respond, and also ... This is why I love the book, Thanks for the Feedback, is because it really is teaching us how to receive feedback. We're talking so much about giving feedback, but there's also so much self-awareness in how we receive feedback.
Even if you don't have a negative reaction in the moment, but if your mind is spinning and you kind of walk off and you're like...it's keeping you up at night because you're... To avoid those things, in the moment, we need to make sure that we're receiving the feedback well. Sometimes people can say, "Okay, I hear you. I get that I'm not performing well in this area, but you said you were going to help me do X, Y, and Z, and you never did. I tried to approach you and you didn't respond. I get you're busy and you're traveling and all those things, but I've been trying to piece it all together on my own."
Rob:
Yeah.
Traci:
And so when we hear feedback like that, we have to stop and say, "Okay, what part of this do I need to take ownership of? You're telling me something I didn't actually think of, and that's fair. And so okay, let's leave with not just action steps for you, but action steps for me." I think that that is a very mature and emotionally intelligent way to have a conversation.
Rob:
Well, it's that time again where we thank our sponsor, the Bureau of Digital, a community of digital makers that all get together and share and support each other. Today we have a special treat. Carl, the head of the bureau, is here with us. Hey, Carl.
Carl:
Hey, everybody. Thank you for having me be on the show. We don't sponsor any other podcasts. When I listened to what y'all were doing, I was like, "We need to support them. We need to find a way that we can help." So I was like, "Ah, we'll be a sponsor."
Rob:
Yeah. And we really do appreciate it. If you have any questions, check out bureauofdigital.com. The 2023 event schedule is up and live. And a big change for this year is if you join and become a member, all of the online events are included. And there's some really good ones. You don't want to miss out. So don't wait. Visit bureauofdigital.com.
Traci:
I think the other thing I'd say about this, and this probably speaks to also when we pivot to the final news, is when I'm coaching people, especially leaders and business owners, I say, "Some of how this person is going to receive feedback is dependent on how your culture is today, and what you have done as a leader and what your leadership team has done as far as setting the stage for feedback in general. What do people know about feedback on your team? What do they know about your company in regards to how we care about... Are we a culture of feedback?"
"Whenever you're having a town hall or a team meeting, are you bringing the whole group together to not just talking about mission, vision, sales, profits, or whatever, but also talking about, 'Hey, just as a reminder, whether it's reviews are coming up or we're looking... it's the beginning of the year and we like to look at people's performance. You know what? We are a culture that values feedback, welcomes feedback, but we also watch how we deliver it. We deliver it respectfully, but clearly. We don't mince words. We're not going to shower you with a bunch of positive things so that you don't hear what you need to work on. We're going to be as crystal clear as we can possibly be. Do our research. Make sure we have our T's crossed and I's dotted. But we as a team have committed to this, so we hope you're on board. We hope that when you're receiving it, you know you're not alone. Everybody receives feedback. We all need to grow. The leaders are growing. The leaders want feedback. This is an open culture, an accepting culture when it comes to constructive criticism and growing together.'"
Now, we can always go back to Patrick Lencioni and say, "One thing we don't want is unhealthy conflict. So aggressive feedback, disrespectful feedback, impatient feedback in the moment without doing your research to see what's true and not true, is not acceptable. Nor is artificial harmony. Nor is blowing it off. Not talking about it. Letting it build. Letting the wound get irritated. That's not acceptable either." I mean, we're talking a few minutes in front of the team saying this. The rewards and the benefits of that are just endless.
Rob:
Yeah. I think the other thing with that whole culture is, depending on the type of conversation, people will remember and instantly flashback to the time when it wasn't done well in your organization. They may not remember the dozen of times it was done well, but if there is once in their memory bank where this wasn't done well, that's where they're going to go. You have to be careful of that because that's where... Fear. Fear is a thing that people have. So you have to be able to be intentional often and always for that consistency piece.
The other thing that I think I'd just like to close with in this section is I think it's really important when we give feedback to focus on impact and not intent on somebody. "Your impact was this. This is how you made somebody else feel. This is what the impact of what you did." Instead of saying, "Well, you're just this way," or, "You intended this." Because I think that separation is really important for people to be able to hear and to make sense of, "Okay, I didn't intend it that way, but that's the way it was interpreted, or this is the impact that it had. People can do something about in making sure they make that connection."
Traci:
Yeah. No, that's good.
Traci:
Hi, Overly Human friends. It's Traci. And if you haven't heard, I wrote a book. It's called, What If There's More?: Finding Significance Beyond Success, and it's out right now. If you're thinking about a career pivot, following your dream, or just falling back in love with what you do, I think this book is for you. If you like it, please go and leave me a review. Happy reading!
Rob:
Okay, let's transition to final news. This is often one of the very last conversations that you might have in a professional setting with somebody. These meetings are even less fun than the previous meetings we had where we're giving feedback to move somewhere. But this final news is a little bit different, in my opinion.
In former life, I've been involved with these conversations several times, and I know you have as well. I can tell you that you know have to be clear and concise and quick when getting to the point. Because in my experience, as soon as somebody actually internalizes and realizes what's happening, they don't hear anything else.
Traci:
Yeah. It's true. Their mind starts spinning. There's different types of final conversations. There's firing, there's layoffs, and there's even people quitting. When people quit, we're kind of receiving that. The whole making sure people leave well and exit well, because the whole boomerang effect, and also just keeping relationships strong is important.
But the layoffs, it's really hard to hear that you were chosen to be part of the group that needs to leave, as opposed to being chosen to be on the team that gets to stay. And when we are able to have empathy...It's like when you're chosen last for the kickball team when you're in the seventh grade. It sucks. Or you're not chosen for the team at all. I know that we're adults now, but that pain is still real. On top of that, you have everything else that goes with it, your livelihood, the way you're going to pay your bills, your health insurance, all the things. So we have the human emotional sting, and then we have the, "Oh, my goodness, we're losing safety and security," sting. I say all this, because again, we lead with empathy. We have to put ourselves in that person's shoes.
Even if we're like, "Oh, they've got plenty of money, they'll be fine." Or, "There's tons of opportunities out there." Whatever we want to say to ourselves, it still doesn't matter. It still hurts. It still stings. We want to make sure on one hand that we have that empathy and we're able to meet them where they are.
But on the other hand, we want to make sure that that doesn't deter us from being clear and direct, and getting all the information out in a way that's really understandable, that makes sense to them, that there's a reason behind why we as a company are making this decision with the layoffs, and all the things.
So yeah, it's difficult. I've been there and it is really a hard thing to balance. But you want to make sure that there is empathy and caring in your voice, and intelligence and competence in your delivery of information.
Rob:
Yeah. Because the worst thing in these conversations is for that person not to understand what's being said. I remember an instance much earlier in my career, one of the first times I had to go through and give this kind of news, and it occurred to me five, ten minutes into the conversation that this person didn't realize what was happening. The panic that I hadn't communicated well and that they didn't get it, and I was going to have to do it again more bluntly in that same moment, was awful.
Traci:
And I think that's why you led with, "Be direct. Make sure you're ..." Because you've had that experience and you know that ten minutes in you're like, "Well, this is awkward. This person's mind is in a completely different location than where mine is." There's so much value in what you just said. Getting to the point and making sure they understand the purpose of this conversation.
Rob:
Yeah.
Traci:
Yeah. I mean, that's respect really, when you think about it. It's really being respectful when we say right up front, "I know this is hard, it totally sucks, but I've got some bad news that I need to..." And really just being upfront and clear, and people appreciate that.
Rob:
If you're new to this, that's such a great way to set the stage on either one of these conversations is, "We need to have a hard conversation." Right?
Traci:
Yeah.
Rob:
Because you're making it really clear. That person all of a sudden isn't listening for the positives, they're listening for the hard thing. You've clued in. You're foreshadowing what comes next, in a way that can't be misinterpreted.
Traci:
Right. I think the other thing too is, when we were talking about just feedback in general, we talked about listening and being heard. I think when it comes to layoffs, it's very important respectfully, and also, legally, to get all the right bullet points out and make sure that you're saying all the right things. And once you get through all the right things, the things you're supposed to say, the legalities and all of those things, then you need to give space to that person.
And some people are going to have a lot of questions. Some people are going to be mad. Some people are going to cry. Some people aren't going to say anything because they don't want to cry, and they want to get the hell out of your office. Or off the phone or off the Zoom, or whatever. That's okay too.
When you have somebody where you can tell there's...whether they're holding in their anger or they're holding in their emotion, to just say, "I totally get it. There's lots of feelings. I want to give you the space to go and process. And then what I'd like to do is touch base when you're ready. So you just shoot me off an email or a text and we will hop back on and go through all your questions." I think that's a nice little gift to give somebody who just needs to go somewhere and take a breath, and then they're ready to come back with more of a dialogue.
Because some people will be expecting news like this, and other people will not be expecting it at all. They will be completely blindsided. Now, this isn't a layoff. Because even if the team knows layoffs are coming, what I've found is that some people have convinced themselves in their mind, for whatever reason, that they couldn't possibly be one of the people on that list. You usually have at least one person that is like, "Ugh, are you kidding me? I did not... I thought you would've taken Johnny, Susie, and Sally long before you took me." You have all your reasons, but those people that feel blindsided are going to have either a very strong reaction coming back at you, or they are going to be holding it all in and need a moment to gather their thoughts.
Rob:
Rightly or wrongly, fair or not, you are the deliverer of that hard and bad news. Even if it wasn't your decisions, which I've been in that situation, where I was given a list for team members that I was going to talk to. Part of the showing up and doing that particular job was taking that heat, being the bad guy for them.
Traci:
Yep. And I think that leaders have to be very careful when they're doing layoffs and somebody is venting back or having a reaction, that you don't get into this sort of weird tit-for-tat. Where you start addressing all the things that come out of their mouth. Because most people, when they're having an emotional reaction, don't even know what's coming out of their mouth.
So you just need to just shake your head and meet them where they are. Say, "I know this is hard. I know this sucks. I hear you. I hear you." Just that meeting them where they are. But don't be like, "Well wait a second, but on Tuesday of last month..." Don't go there.
Rob:
Yeah. It's the ultimate drag dip moment. Just the facts.
Traci:
Yeah. Just the facts. Right.
Rob:
Yeah.
Traci:
Yeah. You're going to be tempted. Because I've had people, definitely in firing situations not layoff situations, that they're like, "But what about this? Da, da, da.” It's tempting to be like, "Well, wait a second ..." and start to ...But the deed is done. The person is no longer going to be part of the company.
So you have to take the high road when the emotions start to go off the rails. And also say, "Okay, maybe we just need to take a little break and catch our breath, and come back together and process through the rest of the details. But if you need a moment, we can take a break here."
Rob:
Yeah. I mean, one of the gifts that somebody once told me to say is, if somebody starts reacting real emotionally and saying things, to be like, "Hey, why don't we wrap this meeting up before anybody says something that they won't be able to take back, and let's reconvene." That's a gift you can give somebody.
Traci:
Yeah. Some people might not appreciate that in the moment, but they will later.
Rob:
Yeah.
Traci:
They'll look back and they'll be like, "Okay, yeah, that was good."
Rob:
Yeah.
Traci:
That I was able to catch my breath and that I was able to take a little time. Because he was probably right, I probably would've said something I regret. So you have to do...If they're like, "No, no, I want to keep ..." You just say, "Trust me. Trust me on this. We're going to take a little bit of a break here and we'll come back. I promise, we'll come back together."
Rob:
This stuff's never easy, Traci.
Traci:
Never easy. That's why they call them hard conversations because they're hard. But we can do the work to make it so it's not such a scary experience. It will always be hard, but we don't need it to be riddled with anxiety and fear. We can just know that this is the tough part of the job.
There's lots of hard parts about being a leader, and this is definitely one of them, but this is why I always say, "You're not born a leader, you're made a leader. It's a skill just like any other skill you're honing. This is another skill that you have to hone. If you think that practice makes perfect, it's not really practice makes perfect, it's really having self-awareness, and really understanding the skill around these types of conversations."
Rob:
Yeah. The intention behind them.
Traci:
Yep.
Rob:
Because if you have to practice to get good at this stuff, I'm not sure I want that practice.
Traci:
Yeah. Exactly. Yeah, and for some of us, this might be a very rare, once in a couple years, few years conversation, so you better dust off your skillset before you hop into this and make sure. You know?
Rob:
Well, because the people you're talking to, the human on this side of the conversation will remember it forever.
Traci:
Yes.
Rob:
That's why it's so important.
Traci:
Yeah. That's true.
Rob:
All right. Thanks, Traci.
Traci:
Thank you.
Announcer:
The Overly Human Podcast is brought to you by Navigate the Journey and Sparkbox. For more information on this podcast, or to get in touch with Traci or Rob, go to overlyhuman.com. If you like what you've heard, subscribe and tell your friends to listen. Thanks.
