Imposter Syndrome
Do you or your employees suffer from imposter syndrome? Imposter syndrome is when someone doubts their abilities or talents and has a fear of being exposed as a fraud. Traci and Rob discuss how you can overcome imposter syndrome as a leader and how you can help your employees do the same.
Transcript
Announcer:
Welcome to the Overly Human Podcast, where we discuss all things human in the workplace. Because it's not just business—it's personal too.
Traci:
Hey Rob, I have a question for you. What do Albert Einstein, Maya Angelou, and Gwenyth Paltrow all have in common?
Rob:
Well, Traci, I don't think the answer you're looking for is great hair, so why don't you go ahead and tell us what you're looking for there.
Traci:
They do all have great hair, actually.
They have all said at one time or another, out loud and in public, that they've suffered from imposter syndrome.
Rob:
Huh.
Traci:
Have you ever heard that? I'm sure you've heard the phrase ‘imposter syndrome.’
Rob:
Yeah, I've heard the phrase, but I did not know that all three of them had suffered from it, no.
Traci:
So imposter syndrome is very different from low self-esteem or a lack of self-confidence, because I think if we thought of all three of those people we probably wouldn't say they have low self-confidence or maybe they just are really struggling with it on the inside and they don't really show it on the outside. I think we could probably confidently say they're well versed and smart and accomplished in all their different fields.
But imposter syndrome is actually a psychological pattern. I'll read you the official definition, which is ‘a pattern in which someone doubts their abilities or talents and has a fear of being exposed as a fraud.’ It's like a collective feeling of inadequacy in the moment of whatever is faced before them or whatever level they've reached. They feel that there are people around them at their level that know a lot more than they do, that are better at their job than they are, and it trips them up.
Rob:
Yeah. So it's a sense of not belonging in a place and not deserving of some kind of position or accolade or circumstance that they're in, is that what you're saying?
Traci:
It's this doubt that you have. So if you're a CEO, you might look at other CEOs and think, “Oh, I bet they have it together. I bet they don't think the same things I do or I bet they don't make mistakes or they seem like they have all the right answers and I don't feel like I have all the right answers.” And that must be what you should appear like, or be like to be a really good CEO.
And there's this feeling of, I must not fail or maybe I got here just because I'm lucky, it was a lucky turn of events. And then all of a sudden, now my company is super successful and I'm the head of it and it was more based on luck than it was based on my ability. So you can start to feel a little bit like a fake.
And again, this might not be something that you feel every single day or every single moment, it might just creep up here and there like a little whisper in your ear.
Rob:
Yeah. Interesting. Like I guess this is probably a good time to say that I don't really believe in luck. One of my favorite luck quotes is actually from Oprah, which is “I believe luck is preparation meeting opportunity.” And that's the way I think about luck is the work that we do creates opportunity for us to take advantage of fortunate circumstances that are beyond our control.
Traci:
Wow, I hadn't heard that before. And I think that's an excellent thing for people to know and to be able to repeat and have a deeper understanding. Because sometimes we struggle with imposter syndrome just because we are trapped in this routine of comparison.
And right now in the world, we live in heightened levels of comparison because we have all this technology and we have social media and so there's this constant, “Oh, they've got it more together than I do, or they know more than I do or wow, they're so well-spoken or wow, they look really pretty.” So there can be this constant level of comparison that happens also in the workplace. So what they say is, nobody wins in the game of comparison and it is something that robs us of our joy and oftentimes our confidence. And we can get the script in our head really messed up when we start looking at people and making assumptions, we can alter reality.
Rob:
Yeah, that's interesting. So probably a good time to drop in here from a full disclosure point of view is I have worked with a lot of people who have claimed and suffered from imposter syndrome. I don't know this is something that I've ever struggled with, at least not knowing what it was. I guess it's possible that before I knew what this was there was something that I just couldn't identify in my career some time, but over the last probably 10, 12 years since I've known this is a thing, I don't remember a moment of, “Oh, that was the imposter syndrome.”
And probably some of that has everything to do with that I'm pretty comfortable in my own skin. And one of the thing from a comparison point of view that really is interesting is I'm pretty open and I'll share with anybody who asks about how we run our business, what we do. And if you think you can out Sparkbox us, then you're welcome to go for it. You will not be a better Sparkbox than I can be, and I'm pretty confident of that. And if you can take things that we're doing and learn and do the best version of you, then I'm good with that. I make peace with that.
So I definitely see the danger in that whole comparison piece of this conversation, how dangerous that is, how much that hurts, and how that can put you in a place to not be the best version of you if you're trying to be something else.
Traci:
Right. And also, I mean, it's probably a good time to point out who typically suffers from imposter syndrome. It's typically people who have reached a high level of success fairly quickly. Also more disadvantaged groups, there tends to be a higher incidence of imposter syndrome with women than with men. Also in academics, there's a lot of imposter syndrome amongst professors because there's a ton of comparison and competition in that field—whether it's women, African Americans, Latino, sometimes they suffer more because they are in disadvantaged groups. And also people who have wrestled with perfectionism all of their life. Sometimes they can suffer from imposter syndrome because they just keep feeling like they haven't gotten there yet and that other people either have.
So there are certain people where you can see this more often. And I, in my coaching, I see this a lot with CEOs who have had fast success. They had an idea or they're very entrepreneurial and they start a business, and then they become very successful, very quickly. They have like 250 people working for them, and they look around and they're like, "Okay, how did I get here? I can do this." But then there can also be moments where they say, "Maybe I'm not the right person for the job, or maybe I only have the title CEO because I was the guy who came up with the idea." And so, they start to have these doubts. And it's usually around the title, do I have this title and do I really deserve it? Or it can be around a certain accolade they win or they're invited to speak at a conference and they're standing on the stage and all of a sudden the imposter syndrome will come into the back of their head like, “Dp I even know what I'm talking about or are they going to know I'm a fake?”
And then from imposter syndrome does come that fake it until you make it mentality that people say often. When you're newly promoted in a job you can also feel imposter syndrome and you're just like, "Okay, I'm going to barrel through."
Because some people can let imposter syndrome take over their mindset. And I think what you're describing is a very good way of retraining your brain or making sure you have the right psychological script in your head where you can say, "I'm okay with who I am. I'm okay with who my company is. I'm going to rest in that. I don't need to compare myself. I can share my knowledge. I do belong in this room. I don't believe that everybody around me knows more than me, I know that we're all in this together." When you have that ability to rewrite the script in your head and to check your assumptions around you, you can put imposter syndrome in its right place.
Rob:
Yeah. So I heard two things there. One, is that I may experience it someday if I ever get to the success you're describing. And two, that I may just have too much confidence. And both those things could absolutely be true.
Traci:
Well, I wouldn't say you have too much confidence because I do feel like that people who are confident can suffer from imposter syndrome. There are people who are extremely successful and come across extremely confident, but still can have doubts every once in a while. I mean, the interview I was listening to of Gwyneth Paltrow I thought was very interesting because she's obviously had great success in her life and she's even had great success in her new company that she's created, which has nothing to do with the entertainment industry.
And she's built this company that's worth millions and millions of dollars, but she is a little new to the business world, she's new to sitting in front of investors and asking them for money and all of these things. And so, of course, things can creep into her mind, like am I the right person for this? Is everybody looking at me like I'm just an actress? Am I qualified to be sitting in a room with a bunch of investment bankers? Those things can enter into her head even though you look at her and think, wow, she's filled with self-confidence. So it can just depend on the situation that you're in as well.
Rob:
I absolutely agree. And I also think that there's some perspectives that a lot of people that I've talked to that suffer from this seem to not have is that all of our journeys are pretty unique. Nobody else has your story and your perspective and I think that's something that we can keep in mind.
And the other thing is that I always tell people on staff is there is always somebody trying to get to where you're at and there's always somebody better than you—no matter where you're at and don't ever lose sight of that. You have something to teach somebody who's trying to get to where you want to be, and there is something you can learn from somebody else. And you probably have some unique perspective to even teach people that may be further along than you are.
And I think that's really, really important because it obviously can be very interesting when you get up and you’re writing or teaching or speaking to come from the mountain, right? Like I have the answer, look to me. And that's a perspective and attitude, I think you can project. But I think it's actually more powerful when you get up and you share your truth and share your story because that's not things that people can argue with, what you've learned, your perspective.
One of the things I say every single time that I've ever been on stage is, “Your mileage may vary.” This is my perspective, this is what I've learned, and this may not apply to you completely but I think there's lessons that you can probably learn and at least share in the perspective. And I think that so many people that I talked to get wrapped up into this, oh, I have to be the expert. They have this ideal they're trying to adhere to that's not attainable anyway and I think that's a really dangerous thing.
Traci:
Yeah. And I think it goes back to when we were talking about vulnerability. And what you're saying is really a great example of just being a vulnerable leader where you say, "Look, I get that I don't have all the answers and I'm still learning and I'm on a journey, but I also respect where I've come from. And I respect all the experiences I've had up to this point and I actually value those and I value myself." And there's a lot of emotional intelligence intertwined in this too.
And I think that's why the way out of imposter syndrome is to do what you're doing. Is to look around and check your assumptions. To look around and value what you've learned up to this point and also evaluate what else is it that you want to learn?
So are you just feeling a little inadequate in the moment because of the situation you're in and that just is a stretching moment. It's a growth moment, it's a good thing. It's not a thing that you should be beating yourself up over, but it's an opportunity to learn more and to be more. So really checking your assumptions and then as you're describing, be kind to yourself, understand where you are in the journey, rewrite that script and really value where you are and what you have to share, I think is key in really putting imposter syndrome in its proper place.
Rob:
Yeah, and I think it's perspective too. I was talking to a younger employee the other day and by younger, I mean, young in their career and they were asking about growth and are they were they should be? And how do they reach the next level? And I slowed them down and I said, "You are exactly where you should be on your journey, on your race." I said, "Comparing to other people is never going to lead you anywhere good, run your own race." And she looked at me and I said, "Okay. And one more thing I'd like to share. You're in your mid 20s." I said, "Average retirement age is 67 now." I said, "Let's talk about how long your career is versus how much you've already completed and let's talk about that perspective. How far along should you be and how much more is there to learn because you'll never stop learning."
Traci:
And that's why the feedback loop you're talking about is so important. Her having that opportunity to come to you and process that with you and you to be able to reshape her perspective gets her outside of her head and into reality and that's what we want to do.
These psychological patterns like imposter syndrome or perfectionism, or all these different patterns that we can wrestle with are altered realities, right? So we have to change our perspective, we have to get outside of those things and start to reshape our perspective and having mentors, having coaches, having a feedback loop, having review systems, all this stuff really helps us all to have a proper perspective and to be able to know how far we've come and how far we have yet to go. So I like how you laid that out. Even from her age, where she is and then how long she has until retirement because I think that helps people take a big deep breath and then say, "Okay, I can sit in this a bit."
Rob:
Yeah. I don't want to get all ‘get off my lawn’ here. But my first professional job, out of college writing software, I remember being told in no uncertain terms that, hey, you are this title today, you can expect some different title in five or seven years if you work hard and that was just the expectation, that was the clarity that was given to me. And it took five years to get that next ladder wrung, and I feel like those same things aren't happening now in the same way.
There's such a desire to move from a junior to a non-junior to a senior and have that happen really quick where those titles are starting to become meaningless. And I think it's all of the if you don't pick up the skills and sometimes those skills come with time, like reps and just doing them for long enough to have that chance that I think that those two things are really related. People feel like they should be further along and then when they get the title, they realize that maybe they haven't acquired the skills yet. So they feel imposter syndrome. And it's all in the cake mix together.
Traci:
Yeah. It's that whole Peter Principle of promoting people before they're ready and then they have to sit with a job that they're not prepared for. And I think what I've seen too today that I think is more prevalent is this desire to be promoted quickly, matched up to companies wanting to promote people in order to keep them. Which none of that is good, right?
So the employee needs to realize what you're talking about, that you need a significant amount of time sitting in these different roles to learn and to best prepare you for the next role. And so, it shouldn't be a race up the corporate ladder, right?
And then the employer needs to realize that there is a lot of other ways to keep an employee than to promote them.And that actually, you could be doing more harm than good promoting somebody too soon. So if you feel like the only avenue you have to keep your employees is to promote them or to give them a different title, then you need to check yourself and you need to check your organization because there are many other ways that you can retain your employee.
And you don't want to set people up to fail and to have these feelings. These feelings of imposter syndrome or for other people to be looking at them like they're not ready or to set expectations within your company that you really don't want to be setting.
Rob:
Yeah. Those will almost always come back to bite you.
Traci:
Yeah. And so, I think resetting perspective like you were saying and allowing the whole team in on that together, where we say, "You know what? We're going to make sure that everybody feels like they're growing, feels like they're valued, feels like they know where they are on the journey and where they're headed, but we're not going to rush it. And we're not going to give you a title or give you a promotion just because."
And this is why I say always separate your review from your pay increases, because you don't want everybody wanting to go up the corporate ladder to have a good review, and that's always tied to pay, right? We want to separate those two things, because we want people to realize why you get promoted or how those ladders work within the organization.
Rob:
Yeah. One of my first managers ever said, "The first time you do something at the next level is not when you'll be promoted, it's after you've repeatedly showed competence doing that without me asking. That's when you deserve to be promoted, that's when you're ready to make that jump." And that's really stuck with me. The things that I expect out of these different levels are behaviors that I no longer have to specify, they're the default, you know what to do.
Traci:
Yeah. And that's also how we'll help people further along when they start to get towards the top and they start to take on more and more responsibility and the pressure really starts to increase. If we've had these conversations with them while they're younger in their career, this'll help them when they are taking on more responsibility when imposter syndrome really starts to kick in, right? At these higher levels.
Typically, you hear about imposter syndrome with the higher up you go and the more pressure you have on you and the more responsibility that you're carrying or the more fame or fortune—that's why you're hearing people like Maya Angelou or Albert Einstein or you hear a lot of celebrities talk about this too, it's like, the pressure's great, so you start to doubt yourself.
So if you're trained up well and you have really good mentors and you've worked at really good companies, then you're going to be prepared to handle, psychologically and through your abilities, handle each role you are elevated into.
Rob:
Yeah. That makes a lot of sense. Well, thanks, Traci.
Traci:
Thank you. It was fun to talk about this. I love talking deep psychology. It's really good. It's helpful, as we said today, helpful to people at all levels.
Rob:
Yeah. All right. Be good.
Traci:
Okay. You too.
Traci:
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The Overly Human podcast is brought to you by Navigate the Journey and Sparkbox. For more information on this podcast, or to get in touch with Traci or Rob, go to overlyhuman.com. Thanks so much for listening.
