The Corporate Ladder Is Not for Everyone
Running a successful business means that you invest in your team just as much as they invest in themselves leading to growth and upward mobility within your organization. But if becoming a manager is not the right option for an individual, what ladder do they have? Let’s talk about how to listen and encourage individual contributors and how to offer other options for advancement.
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Rob:
Many years ago when we started our company, we didn't do reviews and didn't provide a lot of paths for people to advance. And some of that was—well, most of it was based on my own belief that people would kind of choose their own adventure. What I learned over the bunch of years is people want somewhere else to get to. They want a path laid out of what advancement looks like.
And one of the mistakes that I've seen all through my career is once you hit a certain point of proficiency as a designer, a UXer, a developer, or whatever your chosen path is, even if it's HR or finance, is at some point if you want to continue to advance, you have to become a leader of people, a manager. And that always struck me as really bad because I've met a lot of people who are really, really good at what they do but aren't the best people managers or they're not natural leaders.
Now, we've talked a lot about leadership being a skill, but I've come to believe the that if the top of your career ladder has to end in leadership you've made some serious mistakes and that you have to allow people and your company needs people to be really, really proficient, valuable individual contributors.
Announcer:
Welcome to the Overly Human Podcast where we discuss all things human in the workplace. Because it's not just business—it's personal too.
Rob:
Good morning, Traci. How are you?
Traci:
Good. I love this topic. I think too, I like it not just because of what you're saying about really getting clear on career progression and career ladders and all that, which we'll talk about, but also there's a little bit of glorification of leadership and of leaders and of even business owners and entrepreneurs that because we see so much written and so much glorification and also so much discussion that that's the only way or that's the ultimate pinnacle of success or ultimate pinnacle of your career journey, that people who don't want it feel weird. They feel like, "Oh, there's not a spot for me." Or, "Why don't I feel like I want this?" Or, "Why doesn't management seem attractive to me?" And I think that it can really mess with our minds individually.
But also, as business owners trying to create an environment and trying to create career ladders, if we don't have a good handle on the fact that managing people isn't always best suited for everyone, if we don't go with that open mind, we're going to set people up for failure. And that's really hard.
Rob:
Yeah, we're going to lose some really good people who would be really valuable to our companies if we don't provide a way for them to continue being really proficient at what they're gifting is. This is another one those topics that because there is so much external input from everywhere, this isn't just something that we get lost in, everyone gets lost in this it seems, throughout the business world. Media tells us they have to make the jump. That we have to actively fight against it every day, otherwise the outside voices will take over.
Traci:
They will and you'll make bad decisions because you think... Especially in this environment today too where it's almost a generational thing with the whole, everybody needs to have a platform and a certain number of likes and followers—and I see this with my teenagers and even some people that I coach—there's a great emphasis on fame and recognition. And I think it is really having an impact on the business world where people are thinking, "Well, the best way for me to gain fame or recognition is through title or through calling myself something, calling myself a manager, calling myself a certain title, saying I'm an entrepreneur, saying I'm a business owner." And so people will go down that path not even stopping and considering, "What's my gifting? What am I really good at? How am I uniquely designed and what do I want to master? What do I want to go to work every day and master?"
And that's why I think mastery is such an interesting way of looking at job fulfillment because some people just don't have a true gifting, a heart or desire to manage other people, to run a company, to build a company. It's just they might go into it because they feel like they should or they want the recognition, but it's not a place they should go. It's not a coat that fits them. And then when failure strikes or their staff doesn't like them as a leader, like them better as a peer, things can go awry.
Some people can have imposter syndrome or feel like maybe they shouldn't be in a position and they have to work up the belief in themselves even if they have the skillset, we're not talking about those people. We're talking about people who are pursuing paths because they've been told by society they should, or they feel like they're doing it for the wrong reasons.
Rob:
Because there's not a better option laid out for them.
Traci:
Yeah, exactly.
Rob:
That's the real problem, in my opinion, is we as designers of human experiences... Which is really all the company is a collection of humans that are working together with a common set of values towards a common mission and vision. And if we as designers of that human experience tell them and reinforce that, well, in order to achieve this level of compensation or this level of influence or this level of even importance or that word fame for you to feel important, you've got to be this. Then we're making those mistakes and making it so that everybody falls in that trap.
And I think that's just hugely almost irresponsible if there is not a way to be a high-level contributor that doesn't have those same responsibilities. Management's a job. What's that book that we talked about it before? Leadership Without a Title? You can be a leader and be an example and influence people and be really important without ever having the title. But if that's the only way for you to make that jump in either compensation or there's no other path laid out, then you'll default to that.
Traci:
Oh yeah. It's so interesting because my father-in-law keeps popping into my mind, he passed away a couple of years ago, and he was a paramedic in Ireland. And I remember him telling me this story about how after years of being a paramedic, his boss was like, "It's time for you to move into management. You need to be a manager and you're going to operate out of the office and you're going to oversee this group of people and you're going to do all the things." And he didn't want to. He pushed back. He's like, "I don't really have a strong desire." And his boss was like, "Well, you're just not believing in yourself. You really need to do this."
So he ended up taking the promotion and it was a little bit more money and ton more responsibility, and he did it for a year and he said he hated that year. Hated it. Hated it. Hated it. All he wanted to do was be in the field. All he wanted to be doing is helping people and be out there. And so he went to his boss and he said, "I want to go back to just being a paramedic." And his boss could not believe it. He's like, "Well, you're going to have to take a pay cut and the whole thing." And he's like, "I don't care. I want to go back to doing what I love."
And it was such a brave and smart move that really took letting go of your ego and really understanding what you love to do and what you're really gifted at doing. And he ended up doing it for the rest of his career. And at his funeral, I can't even explain to you how many paramedics and the whole medical universe was there in Ireland in their uniform marching down his procession with his coffin down the little town's road.
And it was such a picture of, it's not the title that matters. It's doing what you love, showing up well, mastering that craft, and knowing that there's a place for each of us. He could have stayed in that management role and been a totally different version of himself and been miserable and just done it for the money or done it for the title or done it to have some sort of recognition by his peers, but it wasn't worth it to him. And so I wonder how many people are out there just doing it because they feel like they're supposed to, but they're unhappy and they're not thriving and they're not doing what they love. And all they want to do is the craft. All they want to do is what they feel suits them best.
Some people when they get into leadership... I know for myself, I was able just because being part of a startup you get into a leadership position and manage people, and I enjoy that so much more than I had my previous job. And so to me that was the signal, like, "Oh, this is what you love. This is what you want to do." But for so many people, and I saw it so much in corporate America, just that uncomfortableness of like, "Ugh, now I'm here. I know I'm supposed to be. But I don't like this job as much as I liked my previous one."
Rob:
Yeah. And there's some realities for specifically small businesses. There's only so many of those seats to go around. And I think that unless you're constantly growing and constantly getting bigger, you will stop creating this many opportunities to have people in those titles and seats. And if that's your only plan, your only way for people to advance, they'll have to leave. And then you end up with the very unsustainable place of the best people who have the most experience, who have been bought in the longest look at what you've created and the systems that you've created and say, "Well, I guess I have to leave to do this." Or, "If I'm not gifted in this way, have to take one of these places and be less than to continue to stay if I'm really bought in." And both those seem pretty dumb to me.
Traci:
Right.
Rob:
Well, it's that time again where we thank our sponsor, the Bureau of Digital, a community of digital makers that all get together and share and support each other. And today we have a special treat. Carl, the head of the Bureau is here with us. Hey, Carl.
Carl:
Hey everybody. Thank you for having me be on the show. We don't sponsor any other podcasts, and when I listened to what y'all were doing, I was like, we need to support them. We need to find a way that we can help. So I was like, "Ah, we'll be a sponsor."
Rob:
And we really do appreciate it. And if you have any questions, check out bureauofdigital.com. The 2023 event schedule is up and live, and a big change for this year is if you join and become a member, all of the online events are included—and there's some really good ones. You don't want to miss out. So don't wait. Visit bureauofdigital.com.
Traci:
So it does take the leaders of the company. I mean, on both sides—as usual, we're going to look at both sides of this—if you're the leader, you have to set up an environment where the people who work for you that don't want to advance up the corporate ladder or whatever ladder you've created, where you create space and opportunity for them to grow in that position and feel like it's a right and good thing, and that that position can evolve in whatever way they want. And then the person in the position who doesn't want to advance up that ladder but wants to continue to master their craft and stay in that position also needs to be open to, "How do I keep this fresh? How do I keep mastering? How do I make this position more mine every single day?" And I think that mindset and that mentality will create such a beautiful environment for growth. And you're not maybe advancing in title, but you're advancing in knowledge and learning and teaching and growth within that position.
And so growth can happen no matter what your trajectory and no matter what the ladder is, as long as you have the right mindset and you're approaching your position fresh every day.
Rob:
It's that intentionality on both sides. I've been part of designing most of the career ladders we have a Sparkbox and the last step, because there's always a top of the ladder, it has to be pretty open-ended. It has to be like, "Okay, you've reached this level. How do you become an active participant on designing what happens next?" Both sides for that intentionality. Your impact is something that you will help determine as we go forward. And I think that, at least where I sit now having done Sparkbox for 15 years and been in my career for over 20 now look at it and say, "Yeah, the beginning, you need those intentional steps laid out for you. You need to know what the next rung is. You need support to get there. You need help goal setting."
But at some point, you need a conversation with the person setting your goals and managing you of like, "Well, this is what I see. This is the proficiency that I have. This is where I think I need to go, or we need to go as a company to continue to be on our A game to accomplish our vision and mission with the values that we have." And that's totally the employee's side of this. And the director or the manager has to at some point say, "Well, you're right. I used to do your job, but I spend half my time managing people now so you may be better than me and I have to listen to you and let you help set what's next."
Traci:
Oh yeah. I mean, the best leaders are surrounded by people that are in some senses smarter than them, more gifted than them, that are great at what they do. And good leaders recognize that, and they are on a mission to be the wind beneath their wings to make sure that they succeed, have opportunities to grow, and learn and be better and shine. When I think of great leaders I know those are people that are really affirming people where they are as opposed to only talking about what's next. Helping people feel comfortable where they are, enjoying what they're doing with no expectations beyond just shining and enjoying and loving what you're doing.
Traci:
Hi, Overly Human Friends, it's Traci. And if you haven't heard, I wrote a book, it's called “What If There's More? Finding Significance Beyond Success” and it's out right now. If you're thinking about a career pivot, wanting to follow your dream, or just want to fall back in love with what you do, then I think this book is for you. And if you like what you read, please feel free to head on over and leave me a review. You can learn more at tracischubertbarrett.com and you can find “What If There's More” wherever you buy books. Thanks.
Rob:
This reminded me of thinking about that word that gets thrown around, and we use it too, individual contributor. The individual part is important, but it can't overshadow the second part, which is contributor. That's where the work is done. That's where the vision and mission are realized, is the people doing the work.
We got to backwards at some point, and it's infuriating because those are the stars. One of the things that I love talking about when I talk about the people is I hate the word resources with a passion because resources thinks back something you'd appreciate over time and we get it from the manufacturing world. Of something that's going to be used up and turned into something better. And I hate that whole concept when we talk about our humans because I think it's sets up the wrong kind of relationship.
The word that I like better, which I'm still not sure perfect, is talent. The humans are our talent. They're what we're selling, especially in a services business. If we take our jobs as leaders and think about them as talent managers, and we're going to put together the right talent to solve the problems and realize, and I'm going to keep saying it, mission and vision that we've set forward, then that puts the focus on the people that should have it because they're providing the value.
Traci:
Right. And I think the best way to live this out, if I were to give probably my final tip on all of this is when you are sitting down and you're having your one-on-ones or you're having your year end review or however you do it, is instead of setting it up, so you're talking about what's next, what's next for you? Instead, ask the person that is working for you what they want, what they enjoy most about their job, and how can you get more of that for them? How can you just enhance what's bringing them the most joy in their work? And start there and end there.
If they want to say, if they want to talk about moving up the ladder or they want to talk about moving into a management or some sort of leadership team role, then ask why. "Why do you want to do it beyond the obvious of just moving up the ladder? Why do you want to do it? What's drawing you there?" And really get the person to go deep and really figure out if it's just habit or they're just doing it because they feel they should or if there's true desire and that their talents really do rest in that next level up.
And so when you do that work with them, you're doing it with yourself too as a leader, where you're really starting to understand who are the people that I work with, what are the unique things that make them who they are. As opposed to just going through the motions like, "Oh, you've been in this role for this many years. Okay, we're going to move you into this role now for this many years." And throw that all away for a moment and just look at them as a human and just say, "What are you best at? You're great at a lot of things, you're smart, you're gifted, but what are you best at? What brings you the most fulfillment? The most joy? Let's see how we can make sure you get more of that every day."
Rob:
Yeah. You're maximizing their human potential. I mean, one of the things that I love asking people is, "Where do you want to be? What are your goals? What job title do you eventually want?" And then backing into the question of, "How do we fill your resume with the right things to get you there?" Recognizing that that may be with our company and that may not be, but we can still go through and help you collect the experiences you are going to need.
And I think a good, honest leader will look at that list and say, "Oh, if you want to be here, these five things we can do for you. There's some we can't, and that's okay." And that's the transparent honesty that people appreciate. We can't be everything to everybody and we shouldn't try to be, because when we are, we're not even being what we can be to the things they need.
Traci:
I know. It's so funny too. Well, we talk about this all the time about holding your employees with an open palm. They're not anybody that we own. They are people that are with us for a certain amount of time, some longer than others. And that's perfectly okay. And I love that mentality because it really sets me up, like I said before, is I really just want to be the wind beneath their wings. So my goal is for them to be successful. So I've helped so many people move on and move up, move up within the company or move on. I can't even tell you how many people... And oddly, my boss used to think it was weird. "Why are you helping them get another job?" That's what they're gifting and their heart. So as much as I'd want them to stay here, I'd rather help them move on to the next thing they want to do, even if it's completely different than what they're doing here.
And so I think really going into managing people with that idea of, I want you to succeed, and that might not look like my trajectory, and I'm okay with that. I want it to be yours, I want you to own it. And if that means staying in the same position for the next 10 years, that's okay too. As long as you're doing that position well and you're shining and enjoying it, why would I take that away from you by promoting you when you don't want to be promoted? Or why would I give you responsibilities that don't match your gifting?
But the only way we're able to operate in that way is if we truly know each other, we truly understand what we're best at. I don't know if we take the time because we're going through the motions of having them just do the job that we think they should do and move up the corporate ladder that we think they should.
Rob:
Yeah, it's that whole idea of talent. They're people to be invested in and they should invest in themselves, and that's important. They're not resources.
Traci:
They're not resources, they're humans. And as we say, we must treat them as humans.
Rob:
Yeah, absolutely.
All right. Thanks, Traci.
Traci:
Thank you.
Announcer:
The Overly Human Podcast is brought to you by Navigate the Journey and Sparkbox. For more information on this podcast, or to get in touch with Traci or Rob, go to overlyhuman.com. If you like what you've heard, subscribe and tell your friends to listen. Thanks.
